S1 Cannabis Seeds

heyy guys, I hear this term thrown around every once in a while, and so I gather it means Selfed? But what the hell does that actually mean? Like what's… It is not rare to see novice growers wondering what IBL, BX or S1 mean. While they may seem useless, these acronyms give plenty of information when we High Times recently sat down with Compound Genetics in Portland, Oregon to discuss seeds, genetics, breeding methods and more.

S1 seeds

F1 seeds are first generation. Like a mix between two strains, the first (un stable ) seeds are f1) It takes at least 10 -15 generations of stable mixes to create stable seeds. But I may be wrong though

shepj
Oracle of Hallucinogens

I know what an F1 is . But I think the generations to make it stable are more around 4-5. Thx +rep for help

So the question still stands, WTF is a S1?

Tricks
Well-Known Member

S1 mean selfed, first selfed generation. Now basicly what it means is you reverse a female plant and collect the pollen, pollinate the mother and or clone of that mother to get S1 seeds. You can self a male as well, or you can pollinate one female with a genetically different reversed female.

shepj
Oracle of Hallucinogens

S1 mean selfed, first selfed generation. Now basicly what it means is you reverse a female plant and collect the pollen, pollinate the mother and or clone of that mother to get S1 seeds. You can self a male as well, or you can pollinate one female with a genetically different reversed female.

Tricks
Well-Known Member

Well, you would take the pollen from the reversed female and use it on its mother or a clone of the mother. Its a bit more complex then how im describing it, but thats the basics.

shepj
Oracle of Hallucinogens

+rep thx for the help.

Hopefully someone can tell me how this is done?

frmrboi
Well-Known Member

that’s not how the pro’s do it, they use a chemical stimulant like Giberllic (sp?) Acid or Colloidal Silver this produces a more stable offspring (less pron to hermaphrodites) https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/78710-how-make-colloidal-silver-make.html

shepj
Oracle of Hallucinogens
Aruanda
Well-Known Member
HydroRed
Well-Known Member

Yes, S1 seeds achieved by a chemical will be female if a female is selfed since there were never any male genetics introduced.

CaptainCAVEMAN
Well-Known Member
Aruanda
Well-Known Member

Lulz!! That’s hilarious. Yeah I just heard of s1 and was like wtf is that, then found this thread on my google search and thought I’d ask. Pretty sure I knew that, was never familiar with ‘s1’ though.

Wilderb
Well-Known Member
droopy107
Well-Known Member
Daniel Lawton
Well-Known Member

I already posted some of this elsewhere, however I keep learning over time and want to pass on helpful info. I apologize to the seed sellers, because in fact, if you have just one of their feminized seeds, you can make hundreds very easily. Fortunately, most people are rather lazy and impatient, and since a $5-$10 seeds gets you $$$$$ in pot, hopefully the seed sellers will continue to be very successful.

I’m experimenting with making S1 seeds, mostly just because I’m an autistic nerd and want to know how. I have no plans to sell any (which is illegal in Cal.).

I have 10 autoflower variety of plants growin right now (in 2 locations to keep pollen from mixing). 4 of my seed bearing plants are using colloidal silver forced pollen from one F1 plant, spread onto another F1 plant who’s 3-4 weeks younger.

All are making seeds. Pretty much, if you make colloidal silver, spray until you see the male pods (you’ll be worried the first time, but once you know them you’ll never worry again), you will absolutely get pollen. And trust the pics on the net. If you’re in doubt, once they start to have darker lines on them (maybe purple), you’re in business. If they open up, you can use tweesers to harvest pollen pods, as long as you see several (4 or 5) green or yellow fibers in them (bananas). Don’t have to be yellow, just put them in something and let it dry. But in the long run, you might learn you don’t have to harvest them at all. It’s always easy to make a plant produce it’s own pollen! So why save the stuff?

I goofed up on an AK47 and sprayed it even after the male pods formed, stunting pollen making. Everyone kept emphasizing how you might even have to spray it 3 times a day, so I went overboard.

Produced no pollen in the time I expected. So I ditched it to another room, not wanting to kill it.

That sucker is still alive today, 2 months past it’s predicted lifespan. It’s making so much pollen that I don’t even collect it. Looks to me like she might even pollinate a few of the flower hairs she’s managed to grow along with the really old pollen sacs. We’ll see. That would be a free S1.

One White Widow in particular is making huge amounts of seeds. In her case, she sat next to one of her own kind, 4 weeks older and forced to make pollen using colloidal silver. Then when the entire older plant was covered in male pollen sacs and most were bursting open, I fluffed it with my hands towards the second plant. It was a HEAVY yellow cloud of pollen. I choked from it! Now I can sympathize with those who have asthma from pollen.

Thus he’s FULL of seeds. Not only that, but the first plant that made the huge burst of pollen, has done it again and again and again. I’m going to have to sweep up that floor. Meanwhile, the plant I forced to make pollen grew some flowers anyway, and she’s pollinated herself.

In another case, I collected pollen first, let that plant mature and die, then tried to use the pollen on another of his kind (Lowryder#2). Both were F1. I got seeds, but nothing like the ones I got with that huge burst of pollen. I tried to paint the pollen on with a brush, only to find out, that doesn’t work as well as people claim. You get a few seeds per flower bud. And you can tell in 3 days if you’re getting any, because the white hairs that accepted pollen turn orange. But a ton of them don’t change color at all, and if you wait a week or two, you can see that you only got a few seeds. So the brush doesn’t work well, unless you’re handy with it and very patient.

I finally learned what I believe is the best trick for making seeds. Just spray only part of the plant with colloidal silver, let that make male pods, then let those pollinate the flowers on the same plant, where you didn’t spray. Just fluff it up when the pollen is ready, and there’s a ton of flowers.

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I didn’t try that the first time because I thought that autoflowering varieties didn’t all live long enough to make seeds using their own pollen.

I was dead wrong. Take the times they give you for lowryder#2, AK47, Super Skunk, and add a MONTH to the actual life of the plant. The underestimate. Those 3 are all able to make seeds using their own pollen. Not to mention the longer lived autoflowers, like blueberry.

One thing I learned about making colloidal silver. There’s a lot of superstition in that area. I’m hoping UC Davis’s new marijuana department will clear up some of the marijuana controversies.

In the case of colloidal silver, it DOES NOT harm the plant, if you follow good directions for making it (like on this forum).

Also, the TDS meter doesn’t work on colloidal silver. Or at least, mine doesn’t. I brewed it until it read 50, then for fun I brewed it some more. Read 50 2 more days in a row. So I took the 50 silver, diluted it with equally as much water, and it still read 50.

But, it doesn’t get a yellow/brown color like they say. Just go for that, works fine without measuring it.

Also, the silver wires you use, DO WEAR OUT. I’m not sure why people are claiming you can brew thousands of batches. Those little suckers wear out after about 5 batches. And after each batch, if you look closely, they’ve gotten thinner. To balance that out, switch + and – once in a while. One of them wears out more than the other.

Basic nomenclature of cannabis genetics

Often, when it’s time to buy cannabis seeds, the beginner grower can quickly become confused by some of the acronyms that are written next to the name of the variety. Simply by learning some basic concepts you’ll be able to make the correct choice between seeds with the same name, but different acronym.

There is a big difference between acquiring a second filial generation (F2) or an IBL, even if we talk about seeds of the same variety. These differences will condition the growth pattern of the plants, and also the final product, so that it is almost essential to learn exactly what is the meaning of these acronyms to be more accurate in choosing which seeds to buy, saving ourselves deceptions and getting closer to our preferences.

Pure varieties

Also known as landraces or purebreds, pure cannabis varieties have been the basis of cannabis breeding over the past decades. These species are endemic to a geographical area, where they have developed without having been crossed (hybridised) with other varieties. There are a large number of landraces from all around the planet, belonging to any of the three families of cannabis, C. sativa, C. indica and C. afghanica. Nepal is a good example; in this country different pure cannabis varieties (mostly narrow-leaved mixed use varieties) are grown and you can easily see the differences between genotypes based on the height above sea level at which they are cultivated.

Each variety expresses its genetic code (genotype) with a certain growth and flowering pattern (phenotype), so that pure varieties – with a purest genotype – show great uniformity, with just a few slight differences between phenotypes. We can expect very little variation between landrace specimens of the same variety, giving plants with very similar growth, organoleptic and psychoactive traits. Good examples of these varieties can be Hindu Kush (Sensi Seeds), Colombia Punto Rojo (Cannabiogen) or China Yunnan (Ace Seeds).

IBL or stabilized cannabis hybrids

The IBL acronym (in-bred line), means that the cross was made using plants with almost identical genotype (inbreeding). On the contray, outbreeding is employed to introduce new genes into the variety. Although it happens naturally, self-pollination is a common technique used by breeders to fix desirable traits and thus stabilise the genetic line, either with landraces or hybrids. In cannabis genetics IBL seeds should present a highly uniform growth. Classic IBL examples are Skunk and Northern Lights (Sensi Seeds) or White Widow (Greenhouse). There is a lot of work behind IBL’s like these, as a large population of pure specimens had to be used to select the correct parents. In addition, the breeder must fight against inbreeding depression, the result of crossing parents with very similar genetic information. The reward for this job made properly is a highly stable seed variety.

If we make a cross between two different landrace or IBL lines (parental A and B) with different genotypes, the resulting offspring will be the F1 hybrid, the first filial generation from the cross of the phenotype #1 (Parent A) with the phenotype #2 (Parent B). Commonly in this kind of crosses we will observe a very uniform offspring, depending on how stable the parents are, of course. The F1 hybrid between two pure varieties or IBL’s will show the so-called hybrid vigour – also known as heterosis or outbreeding enhancement – introducing new genes that will produce “better” specimens.

Varieties like Orient Express (Ace Seeds), Red Afro (Tropical Seeds) or Eddy from Original Delicatessen would be good examples of true F1 hybrid. Thus, we refer to the first filial generation of any cross as an F1, while the term “F1 hybrid” is used when the parents are different landrace or IBLs.

How to create a polyhybrid

When we cross two F1 individuals (whether landraces, hybrid or polyhybrid varieties), we obtain the second filial generation or F2, and so on with next generations, F3, F4, etc. The second filial generation often gives a more heterogeneous offspring than the F1; we can expect 25% to resemble parent A, 25% to resemble parent B and 50% will be a mixed expression of traits from both parents. As a consequence the stabilisation work must continue generation after generation ( F3, F4, F5…) until we find the generation that gives a uniform offspring with the traits that we are seeking.

Many of the seeds that we can find in shops are polyhybrids, crosses between different hybrids. The offspring of such crosses are in many cases quite unstable, producing plants with very different traits. Keep in mind that in these cases, the genetic mix is very varied, so we can not expect polyhybrid offspring to be as homogenous as an F1 hybrid. It’s easy to imagine how complex it can be to stabilise a cross, since we are mixing different genes from different varieties, which makes the selection and stabilisation process of the different traits a very hard work. The vast majority of hybrids on the market are in fact polyhybrids, like the White Russian (Serious Seeds) or Fruity Jack / Jack el Frutero (Philosopher Seeds).

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BX or Backcross

Backcrossing is a common technique used by breeders to fix certain traits. This is done by crossing one of the progeny (F1, F2…) with one of the original parents (recurrent parent) which has the desired trait. To have an even more stable expression of the desirable trait, you can cross the BX1 again with the recurrent parent to have a BX2 (squaring) and so on with BX3 (cubing), BX4, BX5.

This technique is also used to replicate clones in seed form. It is done by choosing a male parent to cross with the clone only, backcrossing it as many times as needed to get an offspring as similar as possible to the original clone. The Apollo 13Bx (TGA Subcool) is an excellent example of this technique.

Tropimango by Philosopher Seeds

S1, feminised cannabis seeds

The acronym S1 refers to the first filial generation produced as a result of crossing the plant with itself. This is achieved by a range of techniques aimed at reversing the sex of the selected female plant, getting it to produce male pollen and using it to pollinate itself. If it’s done properly, we get feminised offspring with the same genotype of the parent used.

As always in genetics, the more stable the parent is, the more stable the offspring will be. This technique can also be used as a regular backcross, selecting and fixing traits but starting with just one parent. Thus, we can find S2 or S3 seeds, which have been backcrossed again with the original parent. Examples of S1 are Tropimango (Philosopher Seeds), S.A.D. (Sweet Seeds) or Trainweck (Greenhouse).

The articles published by Alchimiaweb, S.L. are reserved for adult clients only. We would like to remind our customers that cannabis seeds are not listed in the European Community catalogue. They are products intended for genetic conservation and collecting, in no case for cultivation. In some countries it is strictly forbidden to germinate cannabis seeds, other than those authorised by the European Union. We recommend our customers not to infringe the law in any way, we are not responsible for their use.

The High Times Interview: Compound Genetics

Want to know some specifics about breeding cannabis? Know the difference between regular and feminized seeds? Ever heard of an S1, F1 or F2? Do you have any idea what any of it means? I got the chance to link up with Compound Genetics in Portland, Oregon a few month back, and I was lucky enough to sit down with them and talk a little bit about different breeding methods and some terms that are commonly used.

High Times: Can you please explain what an F1 and F2 are when it comes to breeding cannabis?

Compound Genetics: F1 is the first generation [of plants] from unrelated parents. You take a male and a female, you cross them and you create an F1. The F2 is when you work that first generation into the second generation. For example, you could take a Legend Orange Apricot F1, which would be an Orange Apricot male to a Legend OG female, which are completely unrelated parents. When you cross them, the seeds that come from that will be the Legend Orange Apricot F1 generation.

To create the F2, you would take a male from that first generation that you selected from seed and a female from that first generation that you want to breed into the next generation. You would pollinate the F1 female with the F1 male pollen, and the seeds that will be produced will be the Legend Orange Apricot F2.

If you work that into an F3 and F4, once you get past F4, you are in IBL. To do that successfully, you really need to make sure you don’t lock down too many of the same traits, and you’re not bottlenecking because you can create a big mess if you lock down too many of the same traits. You want to keep the gene pool open.

Once you get past F1, it becomes really advanced breeding. F2’s can be a big mess if they aren’t done right. You can send it in the wrong direction by selecting bad parents. F2’s should be left to people who know what they are doing. Very few people work into the F2 and beyond anymore. More people are playing in the F1 generations.

HT: What can you tell us about S1’s and feminized seeds?

CG: It’s also called “selfing.” It’s a part of making feminized seeds in a sense. I think people confuse it with bag seeds sometimes. Bag seeds aren’t always S1’s. Bag seed can be an S1, or it can be from pollen on you floating around and you brush up against a plant. If it’s on you and you brush up against a plant, you just pollinated a plant. S1’s could be made other ways too. It can be caused naturally, like stressing the plant so it forces itself to make S1’s—whether it’s light leaks, feeding or mistreating. S1’s could be created by a breeder, by part of a reversal where they actually spray a mixture of chemicals onto a plant, and it will turn a female plant into a male plant over time.

For example, if I took a Jet Fuel Gelato female and reverse it to force it to turn into a male, I collect the pollen from that reversal,and hit it onto a Jet Fuel Gelato female, the seeds from that cross would be the Jet Fuel Gelato S1’s, which would be the feminized version of Jet Fuel Gelato

S1’s are feminized; 99 percent of feminized seeds will be female. S1 and R1 are considered different. R1 is the equivalent of a feminized F1. F1 is the regular version. Regular is the industry term for a male seed. Feminized is the industry term for a reversed seed or feminized seed. You get feminized seeds from reversing, and you get regular seeds from using a male. The method you would do for S1’s would be the same thing you do to make feminized seeds. You spray it on the plant in certain periods of the early flower cycle, and it makes the plant switch sexes. You can take any female plant and spray over a two to three week period. It won’t grow any female flowers at all. It will actually start to grow male flowers. The whole plant will turn into a complete male. It will release pollen, but reversed plants never release the same amount of pollen as a male plant. Male pollinations will almost always have more seeds. That’s why many breeders prefer males because you can get so many more seeds, and you can do a lot more with males.

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With reversals, it’s kinda hit or miss. You can get a small amount of pollen, or sometimes you can get almost no pollen. Some plants don’t want to spit pollen when you reverse them. If you are reversing a plant and you want to create a bunch of seeds, you going to need to reverse a lot more plants to collect enough pollen versus having a male around which dumps pollen. I would need two males to pollenate a grow room the size of this hotel room. It would take 20 reversed plants to do the work two males can do, and you would have to apply the pollen with direct contact, like brushing the pollen on the plants or hitting the females with a male branch. You have to actually work the plant to spread the pollen, because it’s not dumping pollen like the males plants would. There are a lot of different methods you can use to apply reversed pollen onto other plants.

Jet Fuel Gelato (Photo Courtesy of Compound Genetics)

Feminized seeds kinda have a stigma in the industry. People frown a little bit upon them as if they are made from Monsanto. Genetically modified, not natural, they really have their purpose. The fact that you can run a whole garden of feminized seeds, and you don’t have to worry about weeding out or selecting males. For a beginner grower, it’s perfect. For someone who doesn’t know how to select males, they can just take feminized seeds, run them, and know they do not have to worry about finding any males pollenating their crop and losing their crop because a male slipped through the cracks.

HT: Can you tell me more about hermaphrodite plants?

CG: It definitely is an unstable trait, and it’s definitely more prevalent in untested and unworked gear that is bred from unstable plants. If you are going to create a feminized seed, one of the most important things about fems is that you should never reverse a plant that is unstable. If you reverse a plant that has unstable traits, it’s going to continue those traits onto the next generation.

HT: Can regular plants still throw out herms?

CG: Oh, yeah. Definitely. It can be from that same factor from breeding unstable traits to begin with or environmental issues. In general, it’s usually a genetic trait. Strong genetics that are worked well won’t hermaphrodite under any circumstances. Sometimes when you run seeds from the first generation, some will hermaphrodite, but if you clone them and run them again, that trait won’t come out once you don’t run them from seed. I don’t know exactly why that is true, but it definitely happens. I advise anybody running from seed that experiences hermaphrodites, if it’s a plant that looks real good late in flower, run it again from clone and see what happens. Sometimes, those traits don’t come out in clone. You really can’t do anything to stop them.

I don’t recommend people spraying “Switch” or anything like that. Same goes for any chemical product that’s going to revert your plant back. If your plant is showing that trait, you should either be prepared to live with that trait, eliminate that plant, try to breed it out by outcrossing or crossing it over a few generations, or reverse something onto it that’s going to help eliminate that trait.

HT: What would be your preferred method for collecting pollen, and around what time is best to harvest pollen from the males? Do different males throw out pollen at different times?

CG: Males throw out pollen usually between week 3.5 – 5. That’s usually when they are known to drop pollen. After week 6 or 7, they kind of get spent. If I was going to collect pollen, I would try to collect it around week 4.

There are various ways you can collect it. You can just go up to the male and get a bag, box or something like that and collect it over time by leaving the bag or box open under the plant, or you can take a whole branch of the plant and just literally put it in a bag, just shake it, and all the pollen will come off. Then, you will be left with the male parts of the plant. What you can do with that is take the male pollen sacs, sift or filter it out, then you are left with this fine powder. Ultimately, you just want to have just powder, and storing it clean and dry. The key to saving pollen long periods of time is having it dry. Moisture is the killer for pollen. Light as well. Anything that is bad for dried cannabis will be bad for pollen.

Sour Gelato (Photo Courtesy of Compound Genetics)

HT: What’s the longest you can keep properly stored pollen viable before having to go through another round to collect pollen?

CG: If it’s stored properly, you can keep it for a long time, but generally pollen tends to fade after a year or two. It’s not something that should be your long-term [plan] for saving genetics. To save them long-term, you have to save them in seed form. The best method is using a male of course, but to get the true genetics into seed form, if you can self it, that’s how you can really save anything. If you want to save all your cultivars, S1 everything. You will have pure versions of those clones only in feminized seed form. When you hunt those seeds, you can find the same traits and exact same examples of the mother plants you’re reversing, plus you might find versions that are even better.

S1’s will have the same exact phenotypes that you reverse, plus it will have other unique versions. You can find some better versions of the clone-only mom in the S1’s. If you are trying to save your genetics for a long [time], S1′ s might be the way to go.